23 Responses to “Dog Training techniques?”
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June 29th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
NILF training. I do not think clicker training would have worked on my dog. I guess I could explain a little more, Tyler is eager to please and does well with training, his problem behavior was and still can be is he doesn’t listen well he is easily distracted and hard headed, when I say a command that he knows he will half way do it.
I do not think one method fits all but the NILF method seems to be the most effective for all dogs and of course there is room for adjustment, positive praise I do not see as a method in itself because it is such a loose term, I did positive training with corrections, i did use a professional trainer for Tyler but my other dogs i didn’t really have a need because they were "easier" to train because the always followed commands well.
Btw Tyler is a mutt, lab, sheperd and possibly rottie mix.
my other dogs were a GSD, terrier mix (we really have no idea what she was mixed with), and a golden.
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June 29th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Anybody who is stuck on one so-called method of training without modifying it to fit their needs and dog’s needs is a complete moron.
I train with praise, prong/choke/e-collar corrections, and whatever else works for my dogs.
Questions like these always turn into arguments. Can’t really be helped
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June 29th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
It is all according to the dog. Both of my Labradors (one has passed) were professionally trained with clicker. Excellent results.
Most of my other dogs are ’soft’ so I don’t have to assert much to get them to understand.
My APBT is dominant. Plain and simple. She has a mindset of: ‘I am smarter than you, faster and if you try and bribe me it won’t work’.
So, I use assertive training with her which means prong collar, E collar, serious compulsion and large amounts of good praise.
She is actually the best trained dog in my house.
ADD: Uh, I use *positive* training…….with compulsion. Haven’t found it not to work well yet….
ADD: Hey you, sweetie. Don’t do that. You are NOT me. YOU do not live in my house, YOU do not know my dogs and YOU need to come down off your *throne* and stop calling other people names.
ADD: I have a goldfish and it is very well trained, thank you. And *compulsion* means correction. You are welcome.
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June 29th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
I personally believe you can use positive training for ANYTHING dog or animal wise. I’ve trained dogs using nothing but these methods and they are not just trained animals but working, thinking partners with me. Dogs and other animals are smarter than we give them credit for. I recommend reading Don’t Shoot the Dog and Reaching the Animal Mind both by Karen Pryor. REALLY gives you insight into studies and stories from top marine and animal trainers.
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Lab owner and trainer
June 29th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
I’m a balanced trainer so I use a bit of everything. I start puppies out using mostly positive reinforcement and operant conditioning. As the puppy gets older and understands the commands, I start adding distractions and corrections.I feel that most successful trainers follow this same plan. I don’t use any one method. I make the method fit the dog instead of making the dog fit the method.
Clicker training is fine but too many people have no idea as to what they are doing when they use it. It takes timing. All to often I see people clicking for the wrong reason because there timing is off. I’ve seen aggressive dogs become more aggressive because the owner is clicking (rewarding) for the aggressive behavior instead of calm behavior. Then there are some dogs that are scared of the clicker. Personally, I use a marker word instead of a clicker. I can take my marker anywhere with me. I have a tendency to forget or lose the clicker.
I have no problem with traditional training either. Again if the method is followed where the praise and correction is appropriate, it is a very good way to train. In fact, traditional training is very reliable which is why it is used by most working dog trainers. Again like any training method it can be abused in the name of training the dog. Like in clicker training, a knowledgeable dog saavy trainer makes the method look easy.
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old balanced trainer
June 29th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
I think it all depends on the dog. Obviously, different techniques must be formed for a certain dog.
Me? I use a bit of both. I train with praise, treats and toys when first starting out on a command, then when they know what i want them to do the treats and toys are removed and praise is only given. If they ignore me, or don’t do what i ask them to (when i’m fully confident that they know EXACTLY what i want them to do) then they get a correction. I don’t use prongs, e-collars, pinch collars etc because i don’t think i need them- i’m *not* against them.
If they do something a don’t want them to (undesirable behaviour) a correction is given. When they do something i am pleased with they get praise- "well done!", "good girl", "Yaaay!" "Thank you"
I don’t have a problem with ANY training tool as long as it is used correctly. I couldn’t give a tiny, rats ass if you used just positive, a clicker, a prong, an e-collar if it works for you and the dog, who cares! I have my opinion on training and i’m entitled to it, but no one has to agree with it.
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June 29th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
This sums up a bad trainer, imvho:-
"My APBT is dominant. Plain and simple. She has a mindset of: ‘I am smarter than you, faster and if you try and bribe me it won’t work’.
So, I use assertive training with her which means prong collar, E collar, serious compulsion and large amounts of good praise."
If a dog is smart and fast, then clicker training is ideal for that dog. If you can’t adapt the clicker training for the smart dog, and can only use it on "soft" dogs, then you can’t properly train dogs. No matter what a dog is like, clicker training works. Let’s face it, you couldn’t use serious compulsion on a dolphin……you *have* to think "outside the box"…….which is what Karen Pryor does. I always say to pet handlers who are tempted to use "serious compulsion"…..if this was a dolphin, or a horse, or something a darn site bigger than you…..what would you do? How would you get the behaviour you want? Always makes them sit back and think twice.
I personally use a mixture of clicker and positive reinforcement. If I had to use an e-collar or serious compulsion (whatever that is….the mind boggles) I’d give up training dogs, and get myself a gold-fish.
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June 29th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Clicker training is very good. The sound is sharp and distinct. Positively reinforce with it, and when there is an unwanted behavior, use a vocal sound diversion like "ah ah!" That way the dog knows specifically when it is doing something good or bad.
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Dog owner and dog trainer Victoria Stilwell
June 29th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
I use whatever works.
What that is depends on the dog and the situation….NILIF, witholding rewards, giving rewards, compulsion, allowing natural consequences, whatever.
I looked at marker training (the same thing as clicker training), but I dont have the patience to watch a dog try to figure out what I want. I find it much simpler to show the dog what I want, and then reward him for doing it.
BTW – I trained horses for more than thirty years, and anyone who thinks you cant COMPEL a thousand pound horse to do what you want is speaking from ignorance.
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lots o dogs
June 29th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
WOW
If only a dog could be trained without corrections!!! Where has this been all my life!!!
It is a good thing dolphins aren’t household companions then… and horses do require corrections to train, but, since we are talking about a different SPECIES – it really has less than zero to do with the question.
If you can only use clickers and positive reinforcement without compulsion [which as launi stated, is just corrections] then you CANNOT effectively train a dog. I am sure clicker training works, i am confident that a clicker could be used to teach a dog to sit – the same way as my voice saying ’sit’ could, but how do you proof a dog on a clicker?
Please explain that to me, as when someone says they can train a dog using one i ask them how do you proof a dog with a clicker and THAT always makes them sit back and think more than twice!
As for the dolphins and whales and other animals that are not dogs… you know how much time and effort has been wasted on training? You DO NOT get reliable results, if a dolphin doesn’t feel like performing or working – it doesn’t happen. Show is cancelled. Period.
You will get a ”trained” animal, only when it feels like co-operating. Sorry, but for a dog, compliance is NOT optional, when i tell you to come you COME, otherwise risk getting hit by the car speeding down the road that you are running towards. You think it doesn’t happen? I am looking out my window to the burial site of my neighbours chihuahua where that VERY thing happened a few weeks ago.
As for e-collars…. not going there, get some knowledge, then comment.
If you cannot adapt or if you close you mind off to training ‘outside your comfort zone’ whether this be using serious compulsion like an e-collar or including more motivation – praise, toys etc, then i wouldn’t put much faith in you as a trainer.
Those people sound like they let their own opinions and ethics dictate how they train, and not the temperament, thresholds and motivations of the dog dictate training, which is really the only way you can work with a dog.
[[ADD]]
I guess i should kind of answer the question too….
Clicker training – i can really see no use for it. As i said, i am sure it works, haven’t looked that deep into it but i have my voice to mark behaviours. That is good enough for me.
Traditional, as in ”old school” training?
A lot of old school training is still used today and still getting great results. I think it is hugely misunderstood and MOST people will just equate old school with cruelty. I don’t.
From what i have seen, old school usually equates with results.
I used 101 different methods to train my dog, as he is was/is a frustrating little sh*t at times and even though he is very intelligent, the analytical border collie streak in him got on my t*ts more than a few times….
I did everything from all positive and all treats to some things i am sure i would get blasted for badly on here, in the end i figured out what worked best.
A combination of everything, rewards, corrections and going at his pace.
Not rushing him to learn something or correcting him before he got it into his head.
Learning to give praise or corrections at the proper time and at the same time with appropriate behaviour.
The training ‘aides’ i used were a tennis ball and a choke chain.
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June 29th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
A clicker (sound) is just a marker..nothing more and nothing less. Same way that snapping of the fingers or clicking your tongue would accomplish the same thing.
I use any and all methods that work on my dog. That included positive reinforcement with treats, attention and such when he was a pup and involves the prong and a good correction now when I need it.
#Nellana…honey bunches….You cant honestly tell me that ONE kind of training will work for ALL dogs. They are all different, have different personalities, thresholds…etc.
With my dog…a whole bunch of clicker training would equal euthanization PLAIN AND SIMPLE. I’ve had other dogs that could go their whole life w/o a stern correction and did wonderful. Depends on the dog.
Its a little too simple and uneducated to generalize ALL dogs …k?
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June 29th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
Nellana is right about ONE thing. ALL dogs can be trained with 1 method…just not hers.
Dog training is pure common sense. I teach behaviors with food and toys. That way I’m teaching that there IS indeed something in it for him. Once he understands the commands I correct him for not performing them when commanded. Later I correct him for performing them as commanded but not 100% perfect, for example my dog breaking eye contact while heeling. Then I add distractions and correct the dog for falling for distraction.
ALL that time I STILL give positive reward. I STILL give food. I STILL give toys. There is always something in it for the dog. People talk about weaning dogs off of food and toy rewards after they know commands. So how would you like it if I hired you, taught you how to do your job correctly, then weaned you off your paycheck? When one uses common sense and thinks of it this way it sounds a little silly doesn’t it?
I do make the dog work for longer periods before reward, but reward is a constant.
Now the huge sweeping statement about this method of training works for all dogs is true if you keep this in mind. No 2 dogs are the same, if you have a soft dog who doesn’t take correction well then obviously you tone down and tailor the corrections to it’s temperament.
If you have a hard dog who takes hellacious corrections then you tone them up and tailor the corrections to it’s temperament.
If you have a dog who isn’t motivated very well by food, you use toys. If the dog is not interested in toys, but "overly" interested in food reward to the point it can’t focus, you use a treat of lesser value to the dog (something he doesn’t find as the best food in the world which can be bland treats or even kibble). If your dog is a slow learner you spend more time with the 100% positive teaching part of training. If you have a quick learning dog with a hard temperament, he can be moved along through training faster.
You can train ANY dog on the PLANET no matter how highly motivated, no matter how apathetic, no matter what breed or size with this method. Teach with positive methods, correct when you must, and proof around distraction. I’ve trained every dog I’ve ever had my hands on this way, Search & Rescue, dual purpose police K9, narc dogs, explosives detection, Schutzhund, IPO, PSA, French Ring, trailing dogs, catch dogs, hounds, my rescue American Pit Bull Terrier, 6 week old puppies, 15 year old dogs, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Retrievers, APBTs, a mini Dachshund and my little Chihuahua/Jack Russell Terrier mix and dogs from every temperament from dangerously hard to dangerous fear biters and all the happy "normal" dogs in between.
Every dog can and should be trained with positive reward. And every dog at some point in it’s life it WILL need a correction.
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June 29th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
I normally pass on these questions because they bring out the best…and the worst… in people. Launi gave a superb answer. I have worked with dogs for 30 years and I get the "hard" cases. Not the "I am going to the show and show what I know" dogs.
Yes, clickers can be used with some dogs. I usually do not use them as I need both hands free. I am not training dogs to learn to run and attack a bag. I am training dogs to live with human beings and other animals so they can LIVE.
Thus, rather than repeat everything Launi has written I will second what she said.
This was a very good question and I think you have seen it does bring out the best and worst!
As for those who disagree with the way others train…until you walk in their shoes and deal with their dogs… give your opinion and if your methods work for you, that is wonderful. But no one on here, myself included, has ever dealt with EVERY dog, thus we do not know what will and will not work.
It is great to have confidence in your abilities, but if you are having to exploit others in order to make yourself feel better, that shows a blatant lack of confidence.
I have seen some very good people who just got fed up with the "I AM GREAT" crap on this board. So, other than the excellent responses you have already received, I would advise also that you never get to the point where you cannot open yourself to a new idea.
If you can trust yourself and train your dog your way, and it works, it does not matter what others say or think.
I use the exact same methods that Launi has said she uses and have never had a problem. My dogs are all ready to place in a home when they leave me and none are fearful. In fact, I train fearful dogs. My methods work, I will stick with them.
Good luck in your endeavors. Since you asked the question, I am sure you are open to suggestions… I think it is wonderful when someone can admit they want to hear other ideas instead of being stuck in their own mind. ANd anyone who says they would give up on taining dogs if they had to use corrections, needs to stick to the dog they have or buy a stuffed one because the day os going to come for them when they run into a dog that takes the clicker and stuffs it where it belongs! Now… clickers can be used… but only on some dogs. For those who train the softies…more power to you. But most of the people who have responded well train dogs to do more than one thing. Sorry to add to the controversy here…but GAWD! Looks like some people need to click that gold fish!
great question.
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And I need to add…"serious compulsion" hmm… Why do people think when you say correction or compulsion you BEAT your dog. I have a doig here now who responds very well to me. Correction is a gentle touch or a word. I hd a friend tell me he was an excellent candidae for clicker training. She approached and began and looked the big boy in the eye…and there was a pile of bricks left where she was standing…she left…with her clicker very quickly! Maybe she was on her way to buy a goldfish.
June 29th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
I have never had a dog…
Assuming I will in the future…frankly, it doesn’t matter.
If it gets the dog to work and be trained and is humane(I believe prongs, etc. are humane. Not humane is dumping a dog’s head in water…the trainer was good but had a few flawed ideas).
If the dog gets by fine on clickers, great. Gets by fine on e-collar or prongs, great.
If it works, it’s been tried and true, and the trainer knows it works due to experience…well, why not?
With Calvin, seeing as he’s a bird, I can’t really have corrections other than a stern,"NO" or turning my back on him. On less serious offenses (i.e. not stepping up when asked), I often just ignore it(not the fact that he did it wrong, the error) as birds and cockatiels apparently have a mindset much like a baby’s…any attention os good attention(and I live with a baby…my sister).
Wish there were some other corrections for birds as Calvin is a bit "hard".
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June 29th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Clicker training is nothing more than behavior marking. Marker training, in one form or another, has been around since the dawn of time. It’s nothing new. (we use it regularly in our every day interactions with each other) The only difference is that now we understand it better and have learned that it can be used for very minute and specific behaviors, then strung together to shape more complex behaviors. Anybody who says it wouldn’t work with their dog quite simply doesn’t understand it. This doesn’t mean it should be used for everything. (I use marker training with my dogs, but I certainly don’t use it for everything – it’s simply not necessary)
I use the most positive and effective methods that achieve the results I’m looking for with the dog I’m working with. I find that dogs who are taught in a positive way, work in a positive way. I don’t like to see a dog do what I tell it to out of fear or in a begrudging manner so I do what I have to in order to maintain a positive attitude when I train. It fits my personality, and it makes me and my dogs the most happy in the end, so I will continue to do things that way. I give corrections when they are fair and warranted, and my dogs always know exactly what they did to earn them. I am by no means afraid to give a correction.
I find nellana’s comment about e-collars to be both foolish and short sighted. Of course, I’d never want to see a dog who needed one in her hands, anyway.
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June 29th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
In a nutshell I use motivational training to teach a command, consistent practice to fix the command to the expected behavior in the dog’s mind & then some form of compulsion training to ensure that the dog reliably obeys, first time every time regardless of environmental distractions.
With a puppy & adolescent I use whatever will motivate the dog to want to work for me, be that a toy, food or praise, ensure that I never push the dog faster than its ability to learn, or harder than its temperament can handle, & keep the training sessions short & fun.
I never get frustrated when teaching a dog, & if it forgets a command will go back to step one & teach it again, & if it has a problem learning a particular command, will try different methods until I find the one that works for the individual dog I am working with.
I prefer to use my voice over a clicker to mark the desired behavior to teach & practice commands, & then ensure that my dog is very clear in its mind that bad behavior causes a negative consequence it would rather avoid & compliance is rewarded with praise.
All positive training with no element of compulsion will not cut it with dominant breeds like the Dobermann that will attempt to assert its will over its owner & can be a royal pain in the butt during adolescence when a dog will typically ignores commands & push its boundaries.
A high prey drive dog will instinctively want to chase a rabbit, but a competent trainer can suppress the drive with compulsion training, which insures the dog remains under the handler’s control & prevents it being run over by a car.
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June 29th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
I use positive reinforcement to train my dog. I use praise, treats and toys. My dog has a prong collar and I do issue corrections when necessary.
I love all positive reinforcement methods! I’ve never used a clicker before, but I would like to in the future!
I greatly admire positive reinforcement trainers like Karen Pryor, Patricia McConnell, Pat Miller and Victoria Stilwell.
The old school, traditional dog trainers? Uh, not so much.
I despise "old school" training methods. I don’t use them and I never will.
I DO NOT hit, slap, punch, spank, pinch, choke, strangle, or hang my dog as a form of "training!" That is considered abuse to me.
ADD: Hmm…Three TD’s for not resorting to violent techniques on my dog? What is wrong with this world?
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June 29th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
Just for sh-*ts & giggles, I purchased a clicker to perform a scientific experiment. I made a digital recording of the sound, burned it to a CD, set the player to "repeat", and played it all night long over a loudspeaker to 38 dogs. I continued this for 3 days. On day 4, I took the dogs out 1 by 1….and to my surprise, they hadn’t learned a damned thing. Obviously, "Clicking" doesn’t do anything but make some smart BS artist rich…and annoy the hell out of me.
I use whatever works for each individual dog. "READING" the dog, and adjusting the level of praise/encouragement/reward/correction is done on a "split second" decision based on the dog. The important thing is to ALWAYS advance and never end a session on a "sour note".
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June 29th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
I believe you should only use positive reinforcement training with dogs. Clicker training is a wonderful variation of positive training, I use it with my dog. Positive reinforcement looks to see why a dog is behaving the way it is, and then work to fix it instead of simply forcing a dog to listen.
Traditional dominance training is a very flawed way of training, it causes psychological damage to the dog. Dogs do not need to be dominated. Dogs do not try and dominate humans because they know we are a different species. Eating before your dog and walking into a room before the dog has no effect on the dog’s behavior other than knowing what to expect in the very specific situation.
Science shows that dogs respond best to a positive leader, not a harsh dominating "alpha." While dominance trainers would have you think otherwise, modern scientific research shows positive reinforcement is the best way to train a dog.
I don’t based my opinion on dog training on what sounds better to me, but on what science says is the best way to train, and that is positive training. Traditional dog training is borderline abusive.
PS. Positive does not mean permissive. Corrections are important, but these can be simple such as a doggy time out, sound aversion (a loud sound to disrupt any unwanted behavior), or a vocal correction such as "Ah Ah!"
There is no need to put a prong collar or a shock collar on a dog, leash jerking is proven to cause a dog emotional damage.
References :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEXQsYEaYcI
http://positively.com/2010/03/22/fact-vs-fiction-part-i/
June 29th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
You should just go on Its Me Or The Dog.
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June 29th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
I like your profile picture
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June 29th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
A good way to train dogs how to seat is to put a treat in their face and say and only give them the treat if they obey. Keep doing that. Then after a day or two say seat and if he seats don’t give him any more treats if he seats.
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June 29th, 2010 at 10:32 pm
Go to a local dog club as they can help you much better
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